I'm a Man; I'm a Man; I'm a Man; I'm a Man; I'm a Man; I'm a Man; When We Make Love Together

[tablesaw]

Why am I still awake?

First there's this: The Open-Source Boob Project.

Then there's this:



Which leads to this:



Which leads to this: Could you have written it in a way that was ideally feminist? Probably not. That's really frickin' hard, especially for us as men. But could you have described this progressive, body-positive movement in a way that didn't keep me choked with rage all day and make my fiancee cry? Yes, I think you fucking could have.

Comments

[livinglaurel.livejournal.com]

So what does that mean here? It means that if this was really a movement focused around women respecting their own bodies and the bodies of other women, you probably shouldn't have taken it upon yourself to explain it to the internet. And that when you did explain it to the internet, you probably should have realized that your own personal point of view is very much not representative of what happened and was, in some ways, counterproductive to what happened. And that when people started calling you on this shit—including other people who were there and very clearly had a different experience from yours—you should probably have taken a step back and looked at what you wrote from their eyes, instead of blaming readers for seeing what you wrote, even though you didn't realize that's what you were writing.

That. Fucking. Rocks.

You get it. (Do you mind if I "friend" you? That was just so fucking awesome.)

[tablesaw]

Thank you. Everyone's allowed to add me to their friends list.

[blergeatkitty.livejournal.com]

I couldn't figure out what made me so uncomfortable about that post, but I think you nailed a good portion of it when you said this: "here, extremely explicitly, the women in your story sex validation by become the passive objects, not by active touchers."

That's a very good point. That and, as you said, the peer-pressure aspect. And the power of internet celebrity and herd mentality and ...urgh.

I adore Ferrett 90% of the time, and in real life I'm sure I'd be happy to call him my friend were we to ever meet...but yeah, I was about as pissed off as you were regarding this post. The difference was that I lack the conviction and the confidence to pull off what you did.

[tablesaw]

Ironically, much of that conviction and confidence comes from my own privilege.

[tanyahp.livejournal.com]

Hey, I came over here from the_red_shoes, think you are spot on; I think a lot of people aren't educated to see the gender bias, the imbalance of power, or at least are trained to overlook it. As an aside, or addendum, or irrelevancy, I used to work at Temescal Gateway Park. I'm glad to see Angelenos getting out in the parks. I don't post much, but feel free to friend me if you'd like.

[tablesaw]

Thanks, I do like to have other local journals on the friends list.

Oddly, I haven't yet made it all the way south to Temescal Gateway yet, but I do want to explore that whole Big Wild area. I actually have to write something about the proposed park closures soon, though I haven't yet figured out what to say other than, "No!"

[inflectionpoint.livejournal.com]

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

As a woman who is most certainly not a prude, and has done many things, but still doesn't have any interest in random creepy strangers feeling even more entitlement to demand to touch me than they -already- feel, thank you.

I friended you after seeing your comments over there....

[isako.livejournal.com]

I might respond to this intelligently once I am in a different headplace. Until such time, please assume that my behavior encompasses snarling, clawing motions, and a general aura of OH FUCK NO YOU DID NOT JUST.

Shit like this is why I hermit.

[la-sonnambula.livejournal.com]

Ewww. I feel like I need to degrease my screen after reading that post. The project is like Girls Gone Wild, except there's groping and the girls get compliments instead of t-shirts. Hell, even strip clubs have a no-touching policy.

There's a squalid slavering basement-dwelling masturbator quality about the whole thing which can't be covered up no matter how much the poster talks about the the aesthetics of the female body, body acceptance, and enlightened sexuality. The part where he talks about the Princess in the blue outfit is especially disturbing for its "she's asking for it" tone.

Anyway, you rock.

[coraa.livejournal.com]

The part where he talks about the Princess in the blue outfit is especially disturbing for its "she's asking for it" tone.

Yeah. Because I've gone to a con wearing moderately skimpy clothing -- because it was midsummer in Los Angeles, because I wanted to dress as a certain character, because it was fun -- and I can say for certain that it was not because I was waiting for someone to ask if they could touch my breasts.

(Thank you for your comments, tablesaw. So refreshing.)

[queen-elvis.livejournal.com]

I have a hard time analyzing "stuff that annoys me" objectively, especially right now since I'm getting sick. But at first glance, it looks a lot to me like trying to disguise validation-seeking behavior/mindless groping as body-positivity. I don't care if consenting adults have a big groping party, but it's offensive to disguise it as feminism.

[upstart-crow.livejournal.com]

Hi tablesaw. Friend of red shoes here, sent here by her.

I would very much like to friend your LJ and get to know you better after your comments. Few things make me happier than straight men who Get It. :)

[tablesaw]

Thank you. Everyone's allowed to add me to their friends list.

[mswyrr]

(I come by way of a link from the_red_shoes.

I'm so glad you took the time to post your comments; they were so sane and omg right on that the rage I'd been battling back since I started reading the whole post+thread finally stopped trying to crawl up my esophagus.

[antipodes.livejournal.com]

Thank you so much for your comments.

[hahathor.livejournal.com]

Bless you, T. I'm proud to count you among my friends

And I'm glad you understand that the fact that I have no intention of ever letting you touch my breasts doesn't make either of us undesirable or bad people.

[tablesaw]

Thank you. And yes, you may punch my arm.

[kimberkit.livejournal.com]

Er... while I do see your point of view, I feel like much of his post wouldn't be so objectionable if you heard about it in person -- this seems like anger over semantics rather than more concrete misconduct. I mean, yes, he's clearly writing from a hetero male POV, and he's unapologetic about that, but once you understand that filter, I was able to grok fairly quickly that the actual event was more about open-source sexuality, rather than boobs specifically. Especially when the first comment was "was there open-source nuts-grabbing?" and he responded that there was open-source ass-grabbing, too.

I guess I can't really see getting too angry about a guy acting happy that sexuality was more accessible, even if he did focus more on female sexuality specifically.

Also, if a female is walking around in an extra-skimpy outfit that requires *tape* to hold on, I think the idea that she's putting on a display has clearly at least crossed her mind once. Should the fact that she's on display automatically mean that she's out there courting sexual harassment? No, but any gal in the real world knows that she is definitely going to get more sexual attention in a skimpy outfit than not. And it's abundantly clear that no one at the con crossed the line from "sexual attention" into "sexual harassment" -- he's pretty clear that the intention remained respectful. Boundaries were observed, and the writer seems like he had no intention of crossing over them.

[tablesaw]

Er... while I do see your point of view, I feel like much of his post wouldn't be so objectionable if you heard about it in person -- this seems like anger over semantics rather than more concrete misconduct.

It is, in fact, enitrely over language rather than action. I do understand the spirit of what was going on (though I had to do a lot more perspectives to get it). I'm calling him out on his hetero male point of view and the privilege that allowed him to present it as the only/dominant perspective of the event.

And it's abundantly clear that no one at the con crossed the line from "sexual attention" into "sexual harassment" -- he's pretty clear that the intention remained respectful. Boundaries were observed, and the writer seems like he had no intention of crossing over them.

I have to kind of disagree with the last bit. A lot the story was about the way a straight man got to cross boundaries (and get a sexual thrill out of it) without worrying about consequences.

And that's privilege again. When the boundaries get changed, straight men get more out of the bargain than everyone else. I do not think that's necessarily a reason not to change the boundaries, but it has to be acknowledged. I believe that there shouldn't be legislation against female toplessness (there isn't in New York, there is in California), but I'm aware that currently the straight male privilege of removing that legal and societal boundary is "FREE LIVE SHOW!" I also know that as a straight man, regardless of how I manage my privilege, I'm going to benefit from that. So I'm really careful when the subject comes up to make sure that I'm not making that the focus of the movement.

[daedala.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

[ithiliana.livejournal.com]

I read your lovely post last night, and some of the comments over there, and was too enraged and tired to respond.

But I was thinking: how long ago was it that Harlan Ellison groped Connie Willis at a con and there were movements to make cons safer space for women because that sort of behavior has been standard good old boy stuff for years?

And the phrase "open source" enrages me because (as far as I can tell) its meaning in the original usage was here, this is OPEN-SOURCE code or program, and I created it (I the MAN), and anybody else may change it as they wish.

So when I read "open-source boob" project, I want to grab somebody's nuts and get in their face and says more or less: what do you mean I white man.

And I don't care if there were women feeling other women's breasts as well: it is quite possible for women to be complicit in patriarchy.

I'd have to read more carefully--but if women were the objects of this group grope (was there some mention of ass fondling? But asses are not as sexually objectified in mainstream culture as breasts are), even if some women were fondling as well, I have a hard time seeing women's agency and power, especialy in the context of large public events.

[tablesaw]

Thank you for your compliments. I've followed your journal for a while, and it means a lot to me.

I'd have to read more carefully--but if women were the objects of this group grope (was there some mention of ass fondling? But asses are not as sexually objectified in mainstream culture as breasts are), even if some women were fondling as well, I have a hard time seeing women's agency and power, especialy in the context of large public events.

I was following this from the beginning, so I got to see more of the pro-event support before the flames started really rising. I can't even find a lot of the things I remember because the comments are now so dense. Male ass-grabbing was reported, but was not common and not well advertised. The people present who commented often had a very different view of the situation, which is one of the reasons I got so bugged by the privilege. Many of them objected to his sexualized view on the event. One of the ones I distinctly remember was Here's Yuki-onna.

After reading some of the other viewpoints, my composite take is: This was a situation where women had agency. (I'm really not sure about having power; I don't know if or how that's different here, but my instinct says it is and that the women may not have had it.) Theferrett's view is privileged in that he got to participate in a movement others started for body-positive reasons and was able to derive sexual thrills from it while claiming the motivations of the women originators for his own. And in his story, he wasn't able to separate his privileged sexual motivation from the motivation of the nonprivileged members of the group.

That may be an overly charitable interpretation, but I've been following the journals of people involved for quite some time, so I'm offering a lot of benefit of the doubt.

[claudelemonde.livejournal.com]

thankyou for your words in that abomination of a post, fellow angeleno

[nearly-there.livejournal.com]

Brilliant textual analysis over in that post... I think it would've taken me a week to calm down enough to write something even approaching that.

Thank you.

I don't post much lately, but I've added you.

[ojouchan.livejournal.com]

See? This is why Fate has deemed you worthy of marrying a woman with a 32H.

[saxikath]

...dayumn.

I'm glad to know you.

[yhlee.livejournal.com]

Thank you for posting this and for your comments at theferrett's.

The words, they are not flowing well today

[jhonen-red.livejournal.com]

My reaction to the original story, and to your response, is somewhat conflicted and uncertain. The underlying social dynamics and psychology and such that provide the drama here are absurdly complex. I don't know that any man or woman can justifiably claim to have a solid grasp of both the male and female perspectives on the situation and the way it was presented -- and that's presuming that there is only one essential perspective for each gender, which is pretty absurd.

So as far as data or perspectives to weigh, I have my initial response, which is complex enough: a gestalt of sexual intrigue, social uncertainty, and reflexive guilt. Were some people made uncomfortable in the course of the events described? I suspect so, and that bothers me. Was it an expression of patriarchal dominance? I don't think there's really an objective answer to this. I don't see it that way, but my opinion isn't terribly relevant. I wouldn't be surprised if some women viewed it that way. I wouldn't be surprised if some women viewed it as freeing or empowering, regardless of the implicit context of our society. Is that presumptuous? Yes. As is any attempt to guess another person's response to a situation.

I have some extrapolation of the perspectives of both men and women described in the story. From the comments, it sounds like they vary widely. Again, I think it's important not to ascribe a single response to an entire gender.

Finally I have the responses of other readers. And it's the responses, primarily from women, to your post and your comments, that make me respect what you've written. It's evident that you've described, quite well, a perspective that was underrepresented and unacknowledged. That's always a good thing. Whether I fully "get it" or not, I approve.

Amusingly enough, I have no idea who you are. I think I added you to my friends list because you added me. Apparently we both know radiantsun?

Re: The words, they are not flowing well today

[tablesaw]

We met at a Hike the Geek event last year on the Rainforest Trail

[skitty.livejournal.com]

Very well put. Thank you for articulating that so well.

[jacquez.livejournal.com]

I see your comments (well, all the comments) on the original post have been deleted -- which is a shame, because I thought they were quite good, and because I appreciate it when men call other men on their anti-woman bullcrap.

[jasonlove.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I'm pretty sure it was unintentional--the Ferrett says as much, anyway--but is there any possibility you could reproduce your original comments?

[txvoodoo.livejournal.com]

I'll be brief. I read all your commentary over there, and can't respond over there, so here's me just saying: THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

[emmycantbemeeko.livejournal.com]

Thank you for the comments you left in the original post.

I realize that it probably sounds silly to say so about something as trivial as a livejournal post, but reading your comments really did make my day, or at least made it better. I found ferrett's responses to most of the comments extremely upsetting, and seeing someone lay out the problems with the post in such clear and concise language gave me some hope for the improvement of the social problems it stood for. Ferrett may not have gotten it, but you obviously do- and hopefully, some other readers will get it as well.

In short, you rock.

[tablesaw]

And I have to thank you a lot too. As I remember it, you were the first person to raise these objections in the comments, doing so when the response was still mostly positive and sexism and privilege hadn't really been addressed at all. Your comments were essential, and I don't know how much of what I wrote later would have been there if you hadn't spoken up.

[stungunbilly.livejournal.com]

Hi, just another random link-to-link wanderer coming in from the Boobageddon post. I read some of your analysis, and thought you were pretty freaking smart and also rather awesome.
Just wanted you to know, have a magical life.

P.S. I hope your ideas are catching.